LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For a closer look at what the administration hopes will come out of Friday's meeting, we're now joined by the U.S. ambassador to NATO, Matthew Whitaker. Good morning, Ambassador. Thank you for joining us from Brussels.
MATTHEW WHITAKER: Good morning. Good to be with you.
FADEL: So I want to start with what we just heard, you know, critics saying that this summit may already be a win for Putin. President Trump set an August 8 deadline just a few days ago for Putin to agree on a ceasefire or face more severe sanctions. That deadline came and went, and instead of those consequences, there is this meeting. Why give him another shot?
WHITAKER: It's all in the interest of saving lives. Ultimately, the thousands that are dying on the battlefield every single week could be ended. And if there's a chance that we could, you know, have one more chance for peace, I think President Trump's willing to take that. And, you know, he - you know, there has been, while it's been slow, and it hasn't been certainly revolutionary, there have been some successes in this dialogue that President Trump has created between Russia and Ukraine, between himself and Russia and between himself and Ukraine together with all our European NATO allies. And that - those successes include the exchange of prisoners, POWs, the exchange of the bodies of the fallen. And so there have been some small successes, and I think this is just going to continue to build on that because, you know, President Trump, if given a chance to end the killing and the slaughter that we're seeing on a daily basis, he's going to take that chance.
FADEL: But what indication has Putin given or Russia given that they're actually willing to go to a peace deal? Because for - we speak to many experts on the show who all see Putin as in a place where they think they have momentum, and they think they can get what they want.
WHITAKER: Well, certainly, if they think they can win it on the battlefield without having to enter into diplomacy or a dialogue and move towards a ceasefire and ultimately a lasting peace, then they will just continue to prosecute the war. You know, President Trump obviously has created the leverage to get Vladimir Putin to the table. You know, that included the sale of U.S. weapons to our Canadian and European NATO allies, which he made sure that was supervised by people like - including myself and the secretary general of NATO. And that is moving. Those armaments of the first tranches were announced last week. Those armaments have been moving and sold over a billion dollars' worth of the best military equipment and munitions on the globe. And those - and I think Vladimir Putin took that seriously.
I think he also took the seriousness of the secondary sanctions and tariffs, which India has already been subjected to, and possibly China and Brazil and others that buy Russian oil and gas. And so, you know, I think this is a chance. Eighty percent of communication is nonverbal and so I think President Trump wants to get in the room with Vladimir Putin and potentially Volodymyr Zelenskyy and have the conversation and see if Putin is serious about peace or if he's just going to continue to extend until he gets what he ultimately wants on the battlefield in order to get - might as well try.
FADEL: Is the Ukrainian President Zelenskyy invited to participate in this meeting on Friday?
WHITAKER: Well, that hasn't been determined, and details are still being discussed. But whatever happens, you know, the president's efforts to stop the killing, reach a ceasefire and achieving an enduring peace, I think, is the most important priority. And I think ultimately, that will be announced from one of the nation's capitals, whether it's Kyiv or Washington on whether or not he's going to attend. But today's Monday and the meeting doesn't happen till Friday, so there's a lot of details that I'm sure are still going to be worked out.
FADEL: So there is a possibility that Zelenskyy will participate?
WHITAKER: Yeah, there is a possibility. I don't think that decision has been completely made yet.
FADEL: Was he not invited, as of yet, because Putin made that a condition of the summit?
WHITAKER: Yeah, I have nothing to add to that. What I've already said.
FADEL: OK.
WHITAKER: You know, but ultimately, both sides are going to have to agree to a ceasefire and ultimately any peace deal. And so Zelenskyy's going to have to be represented either by himself or, you know, through intermediaries to negotiate this. But ultimately...
FADEL: On Friday?
WHITAKER: You know, the...
FADEL: Or generally?
WHITAKER: Yeah, generally, but again, people can be called on the phone. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to add people to a meeting. I think this - the whole purpose of this first meeting has been that President Trump wants to see Vladimir Putin, wants to size up his sincerity of actually wanting peace and bringing this war to an end.
FADEL: The president - if the meeting ends up being between the president of the United States and between the president of Russia, I mean, can something be accomplished without Ukraine there?
WHITAKER: Well, ultimately, nothing's going to be agreed to until Ukraine agrees to it as well. I mean, a ceasefire is going to require both sides to quit the fighting and quit shooting and stop the slaughter that's happening on the battlefield, and quite frankly, within the major cities in Ukraine as well because of the drones and the missiles being sent almost on a nightly basis from Russia. And so, you know, but both sides are going to have to agree on the terms of any deal. But at the same time, you know, President Trump, who is a experienced negotiator, he's averaging about a peace deal a month right now, in his being involved and bringing them to a conclusion. We just saw last week between Armenia and Azerbaijan get signed, and both of those leaders agreed that it would not have happened if President Trump hadn't got involved. And so, I think, you know, President Trump has a chance here, he's going to take it. But at the same time, you know, both Putin and Zelenskyy are going to have to agree to whatever the deal is to actually end this war.
FADEL: Now, President Trump suggested, as we heard a little bit earlier, some, quote, "swapping of territories" to bring about an end to the war. Ukrainian President Zelenskyy says Ukraine will not, quote, "gift their land to an occupier" or "reward Russia for what it's perpetrated." Why does President Trump think there's room to negotiate on territory that Russia has annexed or occupies?
WHITAKER: Well, ultimately, there is just the reality of what's happening on the ground, and that is that Russia occupies a little less than 20% of Ukraine and has taken that through force. And, you know, to have a ceasefire and to end the shooting, there's going to have to be some deal on the status of that. And ultimately, that will - if there can be a deal on the status of that 20% that Ukraine and Russia can agree to, then, you know, obviously, then you take the next step. This is a very complicated situation, and both sides are going to have to move. And, you know, the good news is that the experts on both sides, the details are being worked out by the Russians and the Ukrainians as we speak.
FADEL: U.S. Ambassador to NATO Matthew Whitaker, thank you for your time. And we hope to have you back as this process continues.
WHITAKER: Thank you.
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