SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
It's Halloween season, so for some people, this is the perfect time to watch horror movies. But if gore and serial killers and demon possession aren't for you, keep listening because for this week's movie conversation, we're focusing on films that are spooky but not scary. And for that, I'm in the studio with ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producers and big-time film buffs Avery Keatley and Marc Rivers. Hi, Marc. Hi, Avery.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Sacha.
AVERY KEATLEY, BYLINE: Hi, Sacha.
PFEIFFER: We have to start with classification, what we're talking about...
RIVERS: This is important.
PFEIFFER: ...Because earlier this week when we were chatting, I told you what I thought was spooky and you'd say, no, that's a mystery. No, that's a thriller. That's horror. So Avery, how do you define spooky but not scary?
KEATLEY: For me, something that is spooky and is not scary is a movie that's going to kind of, you know, raise your adrenaline a little bit. It's going to have moments of tension. It might have some things that are unsettling. But generally, there's, like, an atmosphere that just kind of feels a little bit off, right? It's very tonal, might make your hair stand up on end. But it's not necessarily going to be that sort of deep sense of dread that you would get with a typical horror movie. But for me, ultimately, the rubric is pretty simple - is it going to give me nightmares? Then it's probably too scary and no longer spooky.
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: Like you said, it is kind of a tonal thing. When I think about horror movies, they kind of have an all-caps tone - you know? - where it's like - where there's a sense that they might be coming after you...
PFEIFFER: Right.
RIVERS: ...Right there in your living room or in the audience. And spooky movies are a little more - they're a little more sly, almost enticing. Like, come closer.
KEATLEY: Yeah. I feel like when you watch a spooky movie, you want to go deeper.
RIVERS: Yeah.
KEATLEY: Whereas a horror movie, you're sort of, like, repulsed by it.
RIVERS: Yeah, you're like, back up.
KEATLEY: You're covering your eyes. You're covering your ears.
RIVERS: Yeah.
KEATLEY: But a spooky movie does kind of draw you in with that sort of...
PFEIFFER: Interesting.
KEATLEY: ...That atmosphere that just makes you be like, oh, what is happening here?
RIVERS: Yeah.
PFEIFFER: Interesting.
KEATLEY: I want to know more.
PFEIFFER: Avery, what are some examples of movies that you consider spooky? They not only fit the category, but you really - you like them, you think they're worth raising in this conversation.
KEATLEY: I'm going to start with the 1998 classic "Practical Magic."
RIVERS: Ridiculous.
(LAUGHTER)
KEATLEY: I love this movie. Marc and I will bicker about it in a moment. So this movie follows the women of the Owens family, who are a family of witches. It stars Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock, and they play sisters Gilly and Sally, who have to revive Gilly's ex-boyfriend Jimmy with witchcraft after they accidentally kill him.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PRACTICAL MAGIC")
SANDRA BULLOCK: (As Sally Owens) Touch bounded smudge of blue sage with braided wheat straw. Insert needles through eyes of corpse.
NICOLE KIDMAN: (As Gillian Owens) Through the eye?
BULLOCK: (As Sally Owens) In the eye.
KEATLEY: OK, so needless to say, this resurrection does not go to plan, and Jimmy's evil spirit threatens to take over their lives. So on paper - right? - that sounds kind of scary, especially if possession and sort of corpse revival are not exactly your thing.
PFEIFFER: Although it sounded pretty silly in the clip.
RIVERS: Yeah.
KEATLEY: That's right. So I think what makes this movie more spooky than scary is that there are definitely comedic moments in it. And also, there's just so much glorious '90s nostalgia in it, from the costumes to the soundtrack.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THIS KISS")
FAITH HILL: (Singing) It's the way you love me. It's a feeling like this. It's...
KEATLEY: And so, you know, even without spoiling the ending of the movie, you kind of know throughout that in the end, everything...
RIVERS: Things are (inaudible).
KEATLEY: ...Is probably going to be OK.
RIVERS: So on the record, I do not (inaudible) this movie is spooky. To me, it's more of, like, you know, if I may, it's a girls' night movie. It's a movie for the girlies.
KEATLEY: Yeah, it is. But it's a spooky movie for the girles.
RIVERS: One minute is kind of spooky, but a lot of it is also a romantic drama.
KEATLEY: It's got...
RIVERS: It's also...
KEATLEY: Look...
RIVERS: ...Sometimes, like, a witchy sitcom almost.
KEATLEY: It's got everything, man.
RIVERS: Yeah.
KEATLEY: Like...
RIVERS: Yeah, no, it's doing a lot.
PFEIFFER: And Marc, if you dismiss Avery's idea as spooky, what would you put on the list?
RIVERS: I think you can't go wrong with a number of films that Val Lewton produced in the '40s for RKO Pictures. And this producer kind of, like, pioneered what we're talking about, this idea of horror movies about suggestion and what might be lurking in the shadows, the first of which and probably the most popular one was "Cat People" in 1942. This is a movie about a woman who is descended from these kind of supernatural women, and she is afraid of becoming sexually aroused because if she does, she will become a panther. And so this is (ph) one of those movies that's kind of about the fear of female sexuality and female power. There's a lot of, like, sly insinuating dialogue from this character, played by Simone Simon, like this.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CAT PEOPLE")
SIMONE SIMON: (As Irena Dubrovna Reed) I like the dark. It's friendly.
RIVERS: And also dialogue from the psychiatrist who tries and ultimately fails to treat her.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CAT PEOPLE")
TOM CONWAY: (As Dr. Louis Judd) All of us carry within us a desire for death. You fear the panther, yet you're drawn to him again and again.
RIVERS: And so, you know, "Cat People" is all about suggestion. It's all about these shadows that almost seem alive on screen. And while there is kind of a famous jump scare in this movie, it was so notable because it's so rare and the movie is all about suggestion and all about that atmosphere and all about the kind of things that we're afraid of but can't see.
PFEIFFER: Yeah. I really took my homework seriously for this conversation, and I watched, or maybe I should say tried to watch so many movies that I considered spooky. "Midsommar"...
RIVERS: Oh, yeah.
PFEIFFER: ...This very weird movie with...
RIVERS: Yeah.
PFEIFFER: ...Florence Pugh where...
KEATLEY: I mean, that's straight up scary.
PFEIFFER: It is.
RIVERS: I think that's (inaudible).
KEATLEY: That's a frightening film.
RIVERS: That ventures into scary, yeah.
KEATLEY: Very (inaudible).
PFEIFFER: They're at this sort of weird Scandinavian traditional camp, and then people start vanishing.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MIDSOMMAR")
VILHELM BLOMGREN: (As Pelle) I know it looks extreme, but we only...
FLORENCE PUGH: (As Dani) I don't know why I'm here, Pelle. I don't know why you invited us. I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know why I'm here.
PFEIFFER: Then I tried "What Lies Beneath." This was Harrison Ford and Michelle Pfeiffer. And I immediately started feeling uncomfortable when doors start opening...
RIVERS: Yeah.
PFEIFFER: ...Or she can't figure out who's over the fence and she's calling, hello.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WHAT LIES BENEATH")
MICHELLE PFEIFFER: (As Claire Spencer) What do you want?
RIVERS: That film is - I think, veers into sloppiness. It depends a lot on those jump scares that we were talking about earlier, where it's like, OK, use something else in your bag of tricks, you know?
PFEIFFER: One or maybe both of you made some reference to kind of the formula of horror, scary, spooky movies. There might be enough of a formula that you can actually spoof it, like in "Scream" or "Cabin In The Woods." Can you talk about that? Is there formula? Is there agreed on conventions for how to make these types of movies?
RIVERS: When I think about the movies that I thought about that might fit into this category of spookiness, I think they do defy convention. There's a film that I thought about - "Picnic At Hanging Rock"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PICNIC AT HANGING ROCK")
ANNE-LOUISE LAMBERT: (As Miranda St Clare) What we see and what we seem are but a dream, a dream within a dream.
RIVERS: ...Directed by Peter Weir, this Australian filmmaker. And it tells you from the outset that these women in this, you know, Victorian boarding school in Australia are going to go to this outcropping and disappear and you never find out what happens. It's telling you that the mystery will not be solved from the very beginning because the mysteries of this movie, they're more metaphysical. The mysteries of what exists or what is happening beyond what I can see. You know, it's about the kind of intangible fears of a land that you may not be comfortable with. So I think these movies are setting out to play with convention because these directors have seen all the horror movies. They know what you think is going to happen, and they want to subvert your expectations.
PFEIFFER: And they leave you very unsteady about what's...
RIVERS: Yeah.
PFEIFFER: ...Happening next. I mean, we all know that music can be used to manipulate emotions, but I'm always amazed how you can have a person in a movie doing something that seems so benign and such a benign place, but if you just put it to the right music track or soundtrack...
RIVERS: Yeah.
PFEIFFER: ...You are quite frightened.
RIVERS: Yeah, "Picnic At Hanging Rock" has this great soundtrack that's kind of led by this woodwind instrument that almost sounds like it's excavating something ancient in the land.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
RIVERS: And "Picnic At Hanging Rock" takes place in mostly broad daylight. But the daylight is woozy. It's hallucinatory. And it's off-putting. You're never on the right foot watching this movie, and you're not quite sure what's really happening. I think that's - I think that lingers longer than just, oh, Michael Myers is after you or whatever, you know?
KEATLEY: I think, similarly, yeah, thinking about, like, not being on the right foot feels like kind of the right way to think about maybe what a spooky movie does to us - right? - to the audience. It kind of, like, puts you at a little bit of a place where you're feeling, like, kind of off kilter.
RIVERS: Yeah.
KEATLEY: I think another movie that does this really well is a film called "A Field In England." This is set during the English Civil War, so like mid-1600s. And it's about a band of men who basically desert battle. They're like, you know what? This is too scary. It's too much. We're out of here. And they start just kind of tramping across the countryside, and they end up in this field, this wide open field, but they end up sort of under the thrall of this alchemist who kind of bewitches them and uses them to look for this mysterious treasure.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A FIELD IN ENGLAND")
MICHAEL SMILEY: (As O'Neil) This place holds a great treasure. Now you will find the treasure in this field, and I'll claim it.
KEATLEY: And there's a lot of just really interesting sort of visual work that's done to make you just feel like - it's a little bit hallucinatory. You don't quite know what's real and what's not. And yet, it's taking place totally in the real world. Like, these are real historical events that happened. And what I like about that is that even though it is spooky and there is some violence similarly, it's all taking place in an open field in daylight. So there's never this kind of, like, real intense dread of feeling like, oh, my gosh, what's behind that door? Is there going to be a jump scare? You kind of are able to see literally as they are. So you have a similar perspective to them.
PFEIFFER: That is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producers Avery Keatley and Marc Rivers. Thanks.
KEATLEY: Thanks, Sacha.
RIVERS: Thanks, Sacha. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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