What does it take to be an NBA legend?
That's the question decorated NBA head coach Phil Jackson set out to answer in his new book, Masters of the Game: A Conversational History of the NBA in 75 Legendary Players, co-written with sports writer Sam Smith.
The book profiles the stars who helped define the sport. One name that comes up repeatedly is Michael Jordan, who Jackson coached to six championships.
"What so many people admired about Michael Jordan is he took the blows and went right back to the free throw line," Jackson says. "When players were playing four games in five nights at that time — which they don't do anymore — he could play ... the fifth night as hard as he played the first game in that series."
Smith notes that NBA success isn't just a question of physical stature. At 7 feet, 1 inch, Shaquille O'Neal was so physically dominant he "could have been the best player in history," Smith says. And yet, Smith adds, Shaq's Lakers teammate Kobe Bryant was more serious about the game.
"Kobe took the game seriously because he wasn't as physically talented. His hand wasn't as big like Jordan. He couldn't palm the ball like that and dominate the game," Smith says. "He was in the gym there at 8 in the morning, 6 in the morning, 8 at night, 10 at night, whatever, all the time."
Interview highlights
On Jackson building trust with Michael Jordan by not asking him for favors
Jackson: I think it puts you on a different level when you start asking for things. It puts you on a beneficial or receivership and when you wanna be in an influential space with someone, you wanna not to have that detriment, that little garbage, that little layer between you, that just makes a difference. And I recognize that as something that I felt was important as a leader and a coach.
Smith: Phil wasn't asking Michael for things. He was trying to help him improve. And over the years, that's what I've seen in players. They want two things from a coach. Just two things: Are you credible? Do you know what you're doing? And can you help me be better? And I thought that was really the reason why [the players] ... really came to trust Phil and more so the system of play, which enabled them to succeed.
On Smith's 1991 book, The Jordan Rules, which revealed gambling and bullying
Smith: I never wrote anything, which sort of was my promise at the time, that would hurt their lives. And I'm still doing the same thing, and Michael's a billionaire. So he's obviously done pretty well since then. But sort of the point was basketball is all fair game. I didn't write about personal life off the court, whatever your life is your life. …
What he liked was being challenged. Like I would come in and say, "Oh yeah, Mr. Star, I noticed you just missed six of your last eight free throws, big star." "OK, I'll show you," and then he goes out and makes the next 12. He loved that kind of stuff. A lot of the greatest players are like that. That rather than telling them how great they are, tell them they're not so great and they'll show you.
On coaching Kobe Bryant
Jackson: He's very sensitive and he does not take criticism lightly. Those are things that I had to learn. That he did not want to be compared to Michael [Jordan], even though his game emulated Michael, down to the fact that he even did a number of physical movements that could only have been influenced by watching Come Fly With Me, which was an important video tape of Michael Jordan's heroics that came out in like 1990 or '89… It just was a huge influence on a kid like Kobe who is probably 10, 11, 12 years of age, where boys are gravitating towards what they can do well, and this is something that he knew he could do really well. …
When he first came into playing for the Lakers when I was coaching, ... I gave him a lead guard role. Which meant he had to set up the floor, he had to be able to feed Shaq, who was the primary focus of the game, and he had to take the leftovers as part of the game as it came to him. And a lot of times he felt left out ... like, "I need to explore my own part of the game." So that's where initially we had to be juggling things a little bit between each other … Eventually I moved him into a role that was very similar to Michael Jordan's, which gave him much more latitude in the game.
On Kobe growing into a leadership role
Jackson: He wanted to be captain of the team. He was 22. And I was like, "Well, you don't go out with the players. The players tell me you stay in the room all the time, you watch tape of the game last night that you played, you're not interested in the conversations that they're having. If you want to be a leader, you need to really rub shoulders with your teammates." And he was like, "They're into hubcaps and their cars and the girls and clubs and rap music, and those aren't the passions that I have right now. Basketball's my focus." ...
I started, giving him books, like ... The Tao of Leadership and some books that were talking about growing into the role that he was gonna play. … He became a really good leader and took it to heart.
On seeing Kobe a week before he died
Jackson: We talked about the good times. We talked about his kids, that he was coaching a girls' team of basketball where [his daughter] Gigi was really a dominant player. ... Talked about his traversing from Orange County up into the Valley into Westlake and taking helicopters. ... He'd used helicopters to travel from LAX, the airport in LA down to Orange County after we come in at 2 in the morning. … It was tragic and yet his legacy [has] really shown up. It's been played out. Young players are carrying him forward and using his example of hard work and tenaciousness and competitiveness to their advantage.
On Dennis Rodman's "bad boy" reputation and finding a way to coach him
Jackson: Dennis was a guy who was a team player. He wasn't creating situations with his teammates. He was very likable by his teammates. … He was not a guy that shot the ball, but he loved to pass the ball. He loved to do the dirty work, he liked to rebound, he liked to do all that stuff. And he'd stand up for his teammates and the blood and sweat of what's all about as a team. He was pretty non-communicative. … His inability to stay focused was something I recognized [in] juveniles or with kids that I'd seen growing up.
On being a coach
Jackson: It's been my privilege to be in the NBA, around the people in the NBA, and to have played with teammates that have won championships and have coached players that have been desirous of being unselfish, cooperative, and desirous of competing at a high level and accepting the coaching and the instructions and the lifestyle and culture that somehow surrounded them when I've been in their presence. And so it's been a wonderful ride for me to have experienced this.
Heidi Saman and Anna Bauman produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Meghan Sullivan adapted it for the web.
Copyright 2025 NPR
